reg/rec how the charging system works

[sixxfiftyboy]

Call this a stupid question but I get extremely frustrated when trying to understand electrical systems/charging systems. I am building a bobber and I am using points and a reg/rec combo. I have been online plenty looking at wiring diagrams which I have no problems with there is a really good chopper one thats straight forward, the thing I dont understand is which way does current flow and what gets power when and why. If anyone knows of a good article or sight on the basics of this I would be really happy. I know it sounds dumb but I just cant wrap my head around electrical stuff. I know if I can fully understand this then I will have no problems wiring my bike myself. I just want the knowledge. Thanks guys
Cheers

[650leo]

Lets get the basics down.
On a bike with the separate reg and rec, when you turn on the key power flows to the reg on the brown wire. The reg will send power to the brushes on the green wire. Through the rotor, out the other brush to ground at the brushes and back into the harness on the black wire.
This gives the rotor a strong magnetic feild. This feild excites the stator. The stator sends out 3 phase AC to the rec on the 3 white wires where it gets converted to DC. It then charges the battery on the red hot wire and the black ground wire. When the battery gets charged to 14.5 volts the reg shuts off the power to the rotor. It turns the power off and on 100's of times a second.
The later combo reg/rec does things in a simular fashion. When you turn the key on power flows to the reg on the brown wire so the reg knows what the battery voltage is. Power also flows to the brushes on the brown wire, through the rotor, out on the green wire to the reg.
The reg reads the battery voltage on the brown wire, if its below 14.5 it turns the rotor on by grounding the green wire. The solid state turns the power on/off much faster than the mechanical reg can. No contacts to wear or burn either.
At this point the rotor gets magnetized and the stator makes electricty just as it does on the older set up.
Now depending on the reg/rec you use it can just hook up the way the seperate units do or you have to do a bit of rewiring.
Mike's sells a reg/rec that wires up as the old set up does.
To use a reg/rec that works like the later models you need to remove the ground from the grounded brush by replacing the 3 steel screws with 3 nylon screws, And sending power to that brush by hooking a wire from the brush to the brown wire after the switch.
If you look over on the www.XS650garageusa.com site they have threads talking about how to hook up the Chrysler reg, the brushes hook up the same as the later combo unit does.
Read the threads in the electrical section about repacement regulators. There are several threads on the subject. There are pics showing which screw need to be swapped to the nylon screws.
I have done the Chrysler reg, Radio Shack replacement on my 75. It works great. I spent less than $25 to do it. Getting the parts up your way run just a bit more.
Intersting reading how ever you do your charging system.

[pamcopete]

650leo,

That is a very good description of the two types of charging systems on the XS650. This thread should be stickied as the question comes up all the time.

[650leo]

Thanks. It took me awhile to get it straight in my head.
It seems simple and straight forward now. It used to seem like magic.

[sixxfiftyboy]

ok I looked at the wiring diagram with reg/rec with points on 650chopper.com its a really understandable diagram and it says that you have to unground the brushes but says nothing about wiring the brush to the brown wire. In the diagram it has a red wire coming from ignition, hooking up to the brown wire whilst hooking up a black wire going into the stator. would this black wire be power to the brush?

[650leo]

I tried looking at the diagram you speak of. 650chopper.com is a search site, it just links you too other sites.
On the black wire to the stator, thats the one to hook to the brown wire.
On your stator where it plugs into the bikes harness, at the six wire plug. I would unplug it, remove the black wire from the harness side of the plug. replace it with a brown wire, run this brown wire to the brown wire after the key switch. Plug it back together. Replace the three metal screw with nylon screws.
Now when you turn the key on power should flow from the switch to the brush with the black wire. The other brush with the green wire goes to the reg/rec.
The reg/rec needs it's brown wire hooked to the brown wire from the switch too.

[650leo]

I think I found your diagram. At xs650chopper.com
Yes, he shows a red wire as main power after the switch. It comes from the switch to a junction that is hooked to the brown to the reg/rec and the black to the brush.
That's a good basic diagram. From there you can add what ever you want.
I think he is showing a 20 amp fuse for every thing.
The 20 amp fuse between the reg/rec I might redo so the wire from battery hooks to the fuse and the fuse hooks to both the switch and the reg/rec. The other fuses can be 10 amp fuses.
The tail light is only wired as a brakelight, no tail light.
The red wire to the head light should also send power after it's fuse back to the tail light.
He shows just one brake switch. That's ok if you have just one brake, if you run both brakes, front and rear, you need another brake switch.
Still a very good basic diagram. Easy to add other things, like a Pamco ignition, horn, maybe even turnsignals.

[sixxfiftyboy]

ya I really liked it. Like I said I can wire stuff up if its basic and I understand when you say it would be easy to add things to it. I know this sounds cheesy but I want to greatly thank you for helping me with this, it took me a while of reading your post and looking at the diagram but I finally get it. you dont what a weight off my shoulders this is.
Cheers

[650leo]

Yes, once you get the charging system right, then the ignition. Adding everything else is pretty easy. Hook to the hot after the switch, run to the whatever it is and to ground. A switch and a fuse somewhere along the line to control and protect the circuit and your golden.
As far as thanks go, helping the next guy is thanks enough.

[sixxfiftyboy]

yes the ignition how does this work? power supplies coils and points, then points put the spark where it needs to go and when, condensor keeps everything normal. does this seem half right?

[richard]

The power is supplied to the coils which are like an amplifier that turns 12 volts into 30,000 volts. Coils are also like a battery that only holds electricity for a split second then it has to be discharged across the spark plug gap. Points can be either mechanical or electronic, but in both configurations they are basically a switch that turns power to the coils off and on at the right time. The right time is when the pistons are at the top of the compression stroke. The condenser helps the points work by making electricity cross them quickly, in a kind of pulse to the coils. The reason the points need a condenser is because otherwise the electricity would cross slower in an extended arc causing burning of the points. Electricity is nothing more than the flow of charged electrons which flow through copper similar to the way water flows through a pipe. This explanation is far from exact but it is the simplest way I could think of to explain it in a quick comment.

[sixxfiftyboy]

I see the light!!

[richard]

The alternator/generator is an electromagnet spinning between three coils that surround it. Those three coils are tied together on one end and the other end has a white wires coming from it, the power generated is pulsing in alternating current which goes through the white wires to the rectifier which turns the pulses into direct current. I’m trying to keep this as simple as I can.

So the electromagnet (also called a rotor) is magnetized and spinning, because of that it induces electrons to flow out the coils through the white wires and to the rectifier. Just hold that thought.

The Rotor which is a spinning electromagnet is powered by one 12 volt wire that goes to one of the bushes then goes through the rotor in a loop then comes back out the other brush which is connected to the ground on the engine. That works because the engine is bolted to the frame which is also grounded.

So the way power is regulated is by turning on and off the power that goes to your spinning electromagnet/rotor. The voltage regulator is the switch that turns the power to the rotor off and on which regulates how much power is going to the battery. Do I still have you so far?

[sixxfiftyboy]

ya dude.

[richard]

Rectifiers basically turn alternating current into direct current by using a diode to filtering electrons so that they are all positive. since elections can only flow through a diode in one direction it can be use to convert alternating current to either positive DC or negative DC current depending on the direction of the diode. There are half wave rectifiers and full wave rectifiers but to keep it simple the main thing you need to know is that most of the time only positive electrons can flow through a rectifier. On the old bikes rectifiers and voltage regulators were separate units so on an old bike those three white wires would have been hooked up to three diodes with fins to dissipate the heat. Generally speaking when a rectifier goes bad it just quits and electricity won’t flow through it at all because the diode is broken from heat or a strike of some kind that breaks the diode or surface of the diode material. These days the regulator and rectifiers are all one solid state units with diodes and voltage sensing built in.

A regulator is basically a electromagnetic switch with an electro magnet hooked to the battery and a point type switch that comes on when the battery is below 14 volts and shut off when it reaches 14 volts.

Solid state regulators have frequency conversion and voltage sensing but explaining that at this point would just complicate things so I described it as a switch which it is.

There is a whole lot more detail to all of this, but it would take a long time to explain how all of it works, so you’ll just have to ask questions when you come to it and learn as you go. I realized you probably know most of this already, but when explain some electrical thing you have to start somewhere and simple seems to be the best place. I hope this helps.