Could it be the battery?

[headcase]

Here's the story: Last October, I came home on the bike and parked it. The usual deal, no drama whatsoever. It had been running and charging fine, no symptoms of any electrical problems whatsoever. It was cool out, but nowhere near freezing just yet. Next morning the key goes in, neutral light comes on, bar switch to run and hit the starter button. CLUNK. The starter jumped for a split second, and all juice goes byebye. Neutral light goes out. Won't even fire with the kick start. It has fuel because I can smell it out the exhaust after enough kicking. Since then I've replaced the starter solenoid, ignition switch (which was falling apart anyways), checked every electrical connection in sight including grounds...all are spotlessly clean. The battery had just finished it's second season,(1-1/2 technically) and I kept it in the house over the winter on it's own battery tender and full.
Eventually I noticed that the neutral light wasn't completely out, just very dim. The signals and brake lights were acting as if they were shorted to power, dimly lit when they shouldn't be. After a few minutes, everything would return to normal so I'd hit the starter again...same thing.
I've had similar issues with the cars in the past (I won't mention Ford) and bad connections to the solenoid and ground that behaved the same way as far as starting. Usually a go round with a wire brush and dielectric grease to the usual suspect areas and all is well. This one had me stumped until one question popped into my head: could the battery still read 12 volts but be internally shorted? It seemed to charge ok in storage until a month ago when the tender gave me a flashing error signal, so somethings up. It charges the car batteries just fine, but the bike battery won't cooperate now.
If it IS the battery, what's up with this crap? 2 batteries in less than 4 years? I know it came with only a 30 day warranty, maybe that should have told me something. I've looked at the AGM and lithium ion batteries on Mike's site, and am considering biting the bullet for one of those. The AGM is only about $10 more than the local AutoZorch is charging for the standard one. The lithium is pricey, but would it be worth the extra bucks? It had better last more than 3 seasons for $170 or so. What say ye, O Guru Meisters?

[richard]

I'm wondering if it isn't a ground issue? When a bike is restored, powder coated and all sometimes they have engine grounding issues that present like your symptoms. My experience with batteries on motorcycles is that they do vary a lot. You kind of get what you pay for. I have one that was a Yuasa that I was not impress with at all and it was always at fully charged, but never put out the amps it was supposed to. The AGM batteries I have had held up pretty well. I ran them in the bikes and the jet skis for years and never had a problem with an of them as long as they were kept charged. If it is a ground issue you can jump the ground (with a jumper cable) from the battery terminal to a good spot on the engine and it should start right up. If you have an amp clamp you could put it on the lead to your starter and see what the draw is, that would be an indication of what the battery is put out under load.

[grizld1]

Headcase, there are two ways to buy AGM batteries. Some are sold pre-filled, and some come with an acid pack and are filled and sealed by the vendor or buyer. I would strongly advise against buying a pre-filled battery from Mike's XS or anyone else. Unless you're feeling lucky, think about paying a little extra for a good Yuasa battery filled, sealed, and charged by a local shop just before you pick it up. I've gotten as much as 7 years out of Yuasa AGM's.

One useful check would be to remove the battery, ground the negative terminal to the motor, and jump the positive terminal straight to the starter motor. The motor won't fire that way, but it should spin if the battery and starter motor are good. If the motor spins, you need to start looking elsewhere in the electrical system for the grief. A resistance check of the alternator rotor would be a good place to start.

[headcase]

Richard: I've done some painting and powder coating last year, and made very sure everything is grounded to each other, and it ran just fine after the last session. Even put a ground strap from the engine to the frame under the tank and tested everything. Itza good.
Griz: I don't mind filling the battery myself, I did it with the lead acid pos I have now, and the one before it. I would think a manufacturer would have their stuff sorted out, but I've really heard nothing good about Yuasa lead acids, makes me hesitant to go with their AGM's.
I was hoping someone had tried the lithium ion battery too, I wasn't even aware someone made them for bikes until a week ago. Thank you both for the input, I'll get to testing your ideas as soon as I can do it without freezing to the bike.

[richard]

Well it sounds like you can eliminate grounding as the problem. Extreme cold can do strange things, especially when it comes electrical stuff containing springs. Connections can be effect by moisture that becomes frozen between contacts too. In the past I have used a blow dryer to warm up cold starter relays in order to get them to work but is was really cold at the time. Resistance is the key to sorting out electrical on stuff like that. It's just a matter of finding out what has the worst connection by checking the resistance, but I'm sure you already know all that. It would be interesting to see how many amps your starter is pulling to see if it is ok and the resistance on the engaged circuit end to end proving all the connection are good. I would try tripping the start relay and circuit directly from the battery to eliminate anything in the wiring harness that energizes the relay as the cause. Just some thoughts, good luck.

[headcase]

Richard - I did try the 'jump the solenoid' bit...that was one of the first nifty tricks I learned on the old Fords. It still didn't work. I checked the voltage last night on the battery and it read 11+. Yet the charger is putting out around 13 and change. As soon as I take it off, back to 11 it goes, so looks like another roached battery. I don't know why I didn't do that as the first test. I assumed the battery was ok since it lit the gauges up. We all know what is said about 'assume'....
As soon as the snow melts I'll have a fresh one ready to go and cross my fingers. I really wasn't looking forward to doing surgery on the harness again.

[richard]

Yeah I know what you mean a battery although frustrating is much easier to replace. No need to get into the wiring harness unless you know there is a problem there. Sounds like the battery to me too. The cold must have froze it or something. It won't be long summer will be here and you'll be back out riding it again.

[headcase]

Now that I'm thinking about it, during my first and second season with this bike, I realized how weak the alternator was, and had issues with the battery going flat pretty easily. I found out the regulator was adjustable, so I tweaked it a bit to 14.5 or so at 3500rpm. I'm now thinking the first new battery was weak out of the box, because the second one worked flawlessly until now...lots of cranking power compared ot the first one. Maybe the extra volt out of the regulator slowly frazzed this battery? I did get almost 2 years out of it though. Fluid has always been kept up with either extra acid that came with it, or distilled water. The second one has never frozen. I'll wait til I'm ready to go before ordering the new one, no sense burning warranty time on the bench.

[richard]

That sounds about right to me. Mine was like yours but I switched to electronic. It runs at 14.5 and as high as 15 volts for a short time at 3500 rpm when it's been sitting a while. 3500 rpm is about 60 mph on mine because I run a 32 on the rear. I would consider 14.5 volt about normal. To me 15 volt is a bit much if it ran very long like that. I was checking it with a fluke meter bungeed to the mirror post, but since then I put on a volt gauge I had as a left over from a dune buggy or something. It was suppose to be temporary just to verify, but it's been on there for over 600 miles.

[headcase]

Everyone likes a happy ending, right? AGM battery showed up and yeehaaa, there be power in the old nag again. This'll be the first time in 4 seasons the bike is ready to go before July. Now I just need to wait for the snow to melt and the mud to harden back up. Until then, I think I'll finesse the seat a bit more and try to figure out how to keep the knees from catching air at speed and making my helmet rattle my head like a paint shaker. Maybe a bunji cord to keep them together?

[richard]

That's great to hear headcase. I knew you'd figure it out. I've been riding mine and it running Gooood :-)